Although I enjoyed the trip, I was hoping to give the classmates a more thorough tour throughout the facilities. We were fortunate enough to see the "above ground" portion of the legal system, the court system and computer room, but to truly get the all-around treatment one must go down to the holding cells. Despite the legitimate and understandable comment made that the prisoners did not want to be seen as if they were animals in a zoo, I find that it is difficult to truly empathize with, and want to help, those locked away by the law without witnessing the cells. To see the holding cells is to feel a gutteral urge to free the people held within them, the sight exhibits a repulsion and desire to undo what is in front of you.
The second thing I wished to clarify is why CJA recommends, or does not recommend, people for release and the consequences of such a decision. CJA seeks to keep people out of jail during their trial so long as it is unnecessary to have them incarcerated. If it is reasonable that the person will return to court for their trials, the basis of which is how unlikely they are to flee the state abandoning their families, jobs, schools, and homes, then upon verifying the existence of such community ties CJA can recommend the person to be released. This in no way facilitates the prisoners release, that is solely in the hands of the judge who may release someone CJA did not recommend or detain someone who was recommended. Keeping someone unnecessarily detained costs thousands of dollars and hundreds of hours, if they are not a menace to society, and it is unnecessary to do so, then everyone wins.
Another thing to keep in mind: this system is obviously not fool-proof, as illustrated by the Son of Sam incident and many others that may come to mind, such as any time a person is released on parole only to commit more crimes. The American Justice system presumes people to be innocent until proven guilty in order to protect the innocent at the expense of allowing some of the guilty to Unfortunately slip through the cracks. It is this premise which forbids torture, and on which CJA bases its actions. In an ideal world the innocent would never be harmed, and only the guilty would be punished, and I believe the system we have in place tries hard to facilitate such an ideal.
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Also if there are any questions Richard Azzolino, my mentor, will be happy to answer them so just post them up and he will reply.
Thanks, Alex, for setting up the visit and for posting here today. It is always enlightening to see first-hand the kinds of work your agencies do and to see the justice system at work.
I will leave your good points for students to answer (and to raise questions). I just wanted to record an observation, which seems small and English teachery but which speaks to your points about how we maintain our human relationship to those thousands that come through the courthouse doors every year. When in the computer room, I had this deja vu feeling looking around at the sad little holiday decorations, the small ways in which an individual worker had tried to personalize his/her desk area (to call them cubbies would be to glorify what is incredibly modest work space), the small out-of-the-way TV replaying old sitcoms (not that I don't love the Fresh Prince). It reminded me of VA hospitals and nursing homes at which I used to volunteer in my youth. Such a hard job and such hard work to try to remain bright, energized and to remember that this exhausting, often soul-deadening work that you do is about the lives of very real people.
A question, then, for you and for Richard: how do you keep morale up? Is everyone motivated by what Mr. Vasquez said: that jail is bad news and if you can keep people out of it, that is a good thing?
The court visit was very informative. How else would I have found out that my old hangout city was the most crime ridden place in New York State! Anyway I wanted to comment on a few points. First I wanted to say that it would have been a good experience to see the holding cells, I’m sure as Alex has described that the effect would have been profound. I also wanted to bring up what our tour guide stated about the town justices, of whom I am familiar with, in the upstate jurisdiction. The town justice from my town was actually a businessman who owned a car towing and junkyard business, he had no legal training. (Luckily in upstate there is a different type of system in place that sides with those who know the right people). Back to the procedure in the city courts, I noticed when the far door was opened in the second court room that I could see a holding cell. From what I saw it did not look like anything pleasant. Also when the kids were brought through the court room in handcuffs I thought “maybe there is a better way to bring people to the holding cell, like a back door rather than parade them through the court room like that.”
I guess one question I would have is, how come when you file a complaint in a precinct, it’s a civilian who takes the complaint not a Police Officer?
I know that I missed out on a wonderful fieldtrip!!! :(
I can only imagine how I would feel if I were to look at prisoners in their cells. Whether a person goes in a holding cell or Prison, I feel that the impact is pretty much the same on the individual. The main difference, in either case, may have more to do with whether th effects are long-term or short-term. I admit that I may be over simplifying the matter, but I do so in an attempt to show that it is truly terrible to be locked away, period.
I agree, Alex, that the system is not fool-proof. However, the number of incidents in which persons are released when they should have been held, and vice versa, need to be rare. I believe that too much is at stake for the individual, the system, and the community for those types of mistakes to be the norm.
The trip to CJA was very interesting. I do feel like you do Alex in that seeing something first hand makes it easier (at least for me) to become more understanding and motivated to change something.
I was most shocked by the amount of people that CJA makes recommendations for and at how thick the packet of information is that is given to the prosecutor, defendant, and judge. I feel as though it is a lot of information that must be absorbed in a very short amount of time.
Alex and Richard, since CJA has been around for a little while do either of you see areas where CJA could improve its work?
Like Alexander, I feel that my personal experiences of having seen people imprisoned have trumped intellectual exercises about justice. People are held like animals and, whether or not they are dangerous, human decency cries out for a different solution. Like Professor Reitz, I also resonated with the bleakness of an understaffed and underfunded agency; 210 people charged with processing so many thousands of arrestees!
My question has to do with the third wave of bail reform, which seeks to get rid of bail bondsmen. Some jurisdictions have put into practice a system where those not released on their own recognizance (but who cannot afford bail) can deposit 10% of the bail set by the court-equal to a bondsmen’s fee-the monies to be retrieved when defendants return to court for all proceedings. My understanding is that we have that process available in many U.S. jurisdictions. Why not NY, which has been a leader in other types of bail reform?
It is always more interesting to see things first hand than to hear about them from others. I agree with Alex that seeing the basement might have been a more profound experience than the one we had sitting in the room hearing about what CJA does rather than seeing it firsthand. However, I greatly understand the reason against going to the basement—i.e. the debasement and animalization of the prisoners; having said that, the court visit was the redeeming factor about our visit. It is always so interesting to see the justice system at work or not at work. The work that CJA does in keeping individuals out of prison as much as possible is one that is a necessary. The young high school student who was the first person we saw called before the judge for public mischief and misconduct, is a prime example of how programs like CJA and CASES can help to keep young people and people in general out of prison as much as possible. I have to say it was truly disheartening to see him stand before the judge.
Chad Out!
Professor Reitz: I think everyone has their own system, their own tricks. Detachment is frequently visible, in forms such as "this is simply a job, I'm here then I leave an can forget" to "I live to get back to watching snipits of sitcom re-runs". Others get closer to those detained, empathizing and taking solace in, at least, trying to minimize the stress of others. I personally am somewhat detache due to keeping busy. If I'm not busy doing internship duties I am reading up for school or doing homework.
Joseph: personally I have no idea why a civillian records the complaint and not a police officer. I imagine it has something to due with finances. A regular paperwork level job probably pays a smaller salary than that of a police officer. Economics demands sacrifices, that is my best guess. And the issue with how the prisoners get to court is an issue of how the building was built, but the holding cells are far from a peachy, upbeat environment.
Professor Stein: I believe that there are systems such as the one you described in place, it has however been changed from 10% to about 40%. It is the bail-bondsman system if I understand you correctly.
Katie: I have no idea as of yet, however I will be able to give a more in depth answer at the end of the semester as I am currently doing comparative research in order to figure out how to improve the BEX department of CJA.
It was a fascinating trip to court and interesting to hear the different voices of those who work in various parts of the system. This visit was also quite different from the tour we got from Nadiya and Thomas. Thomas always had us take a step outside the system and "interrogate" it, if you will, in terms of its operating assumptions and social practices as related to class, race, gender and ideas about "crime" and "punishment."
One thing that struck me as very powerful was when Mr. Vasquez mentioned that what gets paid attention to (in terms of "crime" and "criminals" and "criminality") has a lot to do with outside forces (what's considered "important" to attend to depends on factors other than the "act" or "violation" itself. Obviously he wasn't referring to clear-cut cases of extreme violence, but those aren't the cases that fill up the courts and the jails and the prisons.
What a difference it makes to people's lives if they live in a time when "X," (committed in a certain way or location), is considered a crime worthy of police attention or if they live in a time (or place) when it is not considered a big issue.
Thank you very much for the tour Alex. I was impressed with the amount of work the CJA is doing!
I would definitely love to see the holding cells next time.
Even though I spent some time in a courtroom during last semester, I was confused with what was happening in the first courtroom that we entered. Why were people (clients) coming from a courtroom instead of a small room on the other side of the courtroom (behind the bar)?
Thank you Alex and Richardfor the visit.
We were not allowed to go down to the pens because we would not want to make the accused feel like animals. But why don’t we feel that way when we all parade into the court room, sitting next to each other observing everything from the clothes of the defendants, the attitude of the ADAs, to the retina eye scans administered by court officers. We watch for a little while, and then we get up and leave. To me, that feels just as awkward. Why is it that an audience in the basement is different than an audience in the courtroom? How is it that we would make the men and women feel like animals by walking past their cells, when we are not the one’s that put them in the cell in the first place?
One last question: When Deputy Warden Velasquez said that “Cops don’t just go around shooting people, in fact they hardly pull out their weapons”, which officers was he referring to? I know that just two weeks ago NYPD officers shot an innocent elderly man in his home at 4am. Was he speaking of the court officers? Can someone clarify please?
The next two postings are on behalf of Richard Azzolino of CJA:
Hi Vera Fellows! I would like to thank everyone for the thoughtful and
thought provoking questions and comments regarding CJA and the criminal
justice system in general. Firstly I must echo Alex’s sentiments
about not being able to see the holding cells. I was very disappointed
when I was told that we would not be able to bring you folks there
because that is indeed the only place where you get the true idea of CJA
and what it means to be arrested in NYC, and if I had known earlier I
probably would have cancelled the trip.
If we had gone to the cells you would have seen the assembly line
process a defendant goes through being photographed, searched (for the
second or third time), fingerprinted, checked and interviewed by EMS,
interviewed by CJA and placed in a cell. You would have seen the
“food” that they are given (peanut butter and “honey” or
cheese sandwich). I feel I must put some of those words in quotes
because if you had seen the sandwiches you would know why I have my
doubts. You would have smelled the mix of sweat, ammonia, bleach, urine
and assorted other scents that defendants and criminal justice employees
alike must endure while they are in the holding area. Most notably, you
would have seen Black and Hispanic faces in the cells. Seeing only
minority faces behind bars brings a myriad of questions to mind.
Hopefully this practice of not allowing students to tour the cells will
change in the near future.
More from Richard...
I would also like to expand on Alex’s point on why CJA recommends or
does not recommend. Not only does keeping a person unnecessarily
detained cost the city thousands of dollars, it could also cost the
defendant his job if he misses too many days. It could cause many
problems with the defendant’s children if child care is unavailable.
A defendant could lose their housing if they have been in a shelter and
are unable to return. The repercussions for a defendant in a holding
cell are endless. CJA also plays its part as equalizer in a system that
too often favors those that have money. For example, if two people are
arrested for the same traffic violation and only one has money to pay
bail, in a system where you are innocent until proven guilty, is it
right for one defendant to stay in jail simply because they cannot
afford to pay their way out?
Okay, so on to some of the questions…
@ Professor Reitz…Keeping morale up can be a battle. Yes, the
underlying motivation is never far from one’s mind that we are trying
to help people. I think Alex can attest to the fact that in many of the
locations CJA Interviewers are a close group. They joke with each
other, with court officers and with defendants. It is a dysfunctional
family atmosphere and that helps to keep everyone “up”. However
there are definitely times when burnout occurs. Luckily CJA
Interviewers have great benefits when it comes to time off and usually
are always able to take a break when they need to.
More from Richard in next post...
Okay, I lied. It was three posts.
@Joseph…I heard that since you stopped hanging out there crime has gone
WAY down! Hehe just kidding! Usually a PA (Police Assistant) will take
a complaint simply because the city feels that officers are best used in
other capacities, like out on the street or down in Central Booking.
However when there are layoffs you will probably find many more Police
officers at the phone taking complaints since PA’s are some of the
first to go.
@Katie…I am in agreement with you. I am always shocked at the amount
of people that CJA makes recommendations for. The amount of work that
goes through the criminal court is enormous. It is amazing that it all
gets done in a timely fashion and very few mistakes are made. I may get
into trouble for saying this, but as far as room for improvement goes I
see a lot that could be done. In Central Booking inparticular I think
there needs to be much bette
r communication with Police Officers and CJA
regarding CJA’s mission. Many officers who bring in defendants feel
like CJA is just a roadblock and holds up the system. Another area for
improvement could be improving morale, going back to what Professor
Reitz mentioned. Maybe regular meetings where Interviewers and
Supervisors could vent, make suggestions and feel like their concerns
are being listened to.
@ Professor Stein… I’m going to pass your question on to Peter Kiers.
In addition to being the Director of Operations at CJA he is also the
President of the National Association of Pretrial Services Agencies and
has had many discussions on bail bondsmen and bail reform.
@ Chad…Yes it is heartbreaking to see teenagers come into the system.
Many of whom, this is their first introduction into the system and sadly
not their last. It is a comment on society when you see many of them
that just accept this as their path in life.
-Rich Out!
@Alisse… Well said! Arrests and crime in NYC sometimes feels like a
“flavor of the month” scenario. Whatever makes the news and
whatever the mayor insists be treated more harshly determines what
populates our cells!
@ Nadiya… If I understand the question correctly I believe you are
referring to some defendants that were sitting in the first two rows of
the audience. Sometimes a defendant is brought up directly from Central
Booking to the court instead of waiting in a cell behind the court. In
those cases they just sit them with their lawyer in the front rows until
the judge calls the case.
Whew! I hope I answered everyone. If anyone else has any further
questions, don’t hesitate! Thanks and good luck in school!
Alex and members of the CJA community, I would like to thank you for the great informative tour given to the class last week Thursday.
Going to the courts and viewing the mini trials going on reminded me of how fast pace the criminal justice system is . Througout the tour I felt like people who work in the courts are always rushing back and fourth to do what they need to do. But my only concern was, did they feel any compassion or emotion towards their duties. If a lawyer in the room was defending a kid for whatever crime he or she committed, did they feel for that person? Did they desire to help or were they just distant from those they assisted? Sitting in the court room showed me an image of a cold system, one that showed no compassion but only fear.
My only question is (anyone can feel free to answer): Do you have compassion for those you help? If so, to what extent?
Christine: To be honest I have never felt the same way about the courtroom as you do. Granted, the division of the public and the trial area may be seen as a dehumanizing barrier separating the humans from the animals. However, I think it is far less critical than that, some people on trial may be dangerous, mentally unstable, or drugged out at the time:the division is done for safety. And they do not walk past their cells, they walk out of them, and stand next to lawyers, judges, and cops, not in a massive row of inmates as if they are only worthy to stand by each other. And Velasquez's statement is true: the majority of officers on the force never draw their firearm. The fact that a cop did nothing with his gun does not make the news. The only time a cop with a gun makes the news is when they valiantly apprehend a dangerous suspect, or shoot someone. Either way, this is the exception.
Jessica: I believe we all do empathize with the people we are helping. Despite a healthy amount of detachment necessary to not "burn out" I believe everyone in one way or another feels sympathy, especially once those cells are seen-a scene which immediately has a guttural response in the viewer to help and free those detained. Which is again, why I was hoping we would see the holding cells.
Thanks Richard for the clarification, and yea I bet they're glad I finally left up there!
Thank you for the answer! Then, my question is when do they talk to their lawyers? I thought they were supposed to have a private conversation...
Thank you. Sorry for my curiosity
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